Curse

Lykan · Feb 17, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

"Oh noes the heroes are so good I cant beat them, help me!"
If I actually HA'd I might be offended but like most people I quit HA ages ago as its gone beyond a Joke.
These posts pop up time and time again and its always the same arguments. "oh you only dont like them as you cant beat them" Wow how can people be so wrong again and again.
Its not the skills or how they use them its the fact that they are AI, not human, bots, computer controlled npcs.
If I wanted to fight bots I would play HB or hell Pve.
Some people just dont understand the differences between playing against a full human team and a team with bots.
People who loved Pvp back when GW first started, do not want to fight bots all night.
The state of HA now sickens me so much I cant even spend time in the district.

Thanks Arya.

Seraphim of Chaos · Feb 17, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

obligatory hero rage

TheHaxor · Feb 17, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

If I actually HA'd I might be offended but like most people I quit HA ages ago as its gone beyond a Joke.

I stopped reading after that statement because I lost all interest in what you had to say. Here's why... I assumed that you play GvG based on the guild tag in your profile. This means you play a game type that is based around a Guild Lord (an NPC) that must be eliminated and is guarded by other NPCs that also must be eliminated. You aren't even required to do anything to players on the other team to win the match. I fail to understand the logic of playing a game type that is more centered around NPCs if you don't like to play against NPCs. This makes me think your argument is either a cop-out or you don't reason very well. This doesn't even account for the fact that your opinion doesn't hold much weight in an area of the game that you don't even play.

The only way your argument is valid is if you are an RA/TA player. In which case I would find it hilarious that you actually have the fortitude to critique the state of another area in the game.

Seraphim of Chaos · Feb 17, 2009, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I stopped reading after that statement because I lost all interest in what you had to say. Here's why... I assumed that you play GvG based on the guild tag in your profile. This means you play a game type that is based around a Guild Lord (an NPC) that must be eliminated and is guarded by other NPCs that also must be eliminated. You aren't even required to do anything to players on the other team to win the match. I fail to understand the logic of playing a game type that is more centered around NPCs if you don't like to play against NPCs. This makes me think your argument is either a cop-out or you don't reason very well. This doesn't even account for the fact that your opinion doesn't hold much weight in an area of the game that you don't even play.

The only way your argument is valid is if you are an RA/TA player. In which case I would find it hilarious that you actually have the fortitude to critique the state of another area in the game.

is +28 good enough

Arya Nibelrund · Feb 17, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

People fail to understand that heroes are not the problem. It's the skills that people are putting on the heroes bar that are the problem.

More or less same concept I expressed in a similar thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=80

Even with that, and even if I know that removing heroes will hurt players base in an unrecoverable way, I understand why players don't want to fight NPCs in a player vs player environment. They have the most valid point, it's pvp, there's no room for AI. Plain, simple and undeniable fact.
Then, you can keep arguing that forming parties is easier (then I would tell you that I never had any issue forming parties with 8 players before heroways, and who cares if sometimes we had to take bad players because noone else was online....), there's less raging in the group (my solution: I never pugged so I never played with ragers), every bar is standard so it's easier to play (easy doesn't equal fun or I would play some lameass spike builds), heroways are easy to beat (which is not true as 95% of teams in halls are heroways so either everyone plays this or other builds gets regularly owned), everyone in heroway knows how to play his bar so it takes less time to set up (same thing that happened in our parties) and so on and so forth.
See, all good reasons, but the main point remains. It's AI, which is not supposed to be there. I don't know for how long you all have played HA, but since teaseways being so widely spread we have more people teaming up but the fun has been reduced to 0 and the quitting rate of decent players has risen, now all that is left are people who farm like it's double vanq weekend.
Also, I'm not here to defend Buffy, but StP was born as a HA guild so I presume he's played quite a bit of HA when it was in a much better state.

Quote:

You aren't even required to do anything to players on the other team to win the match

This statement is ridiculous. Please come back with valid points if you want to argue with someone.

Reverend Dr · Feb 17, 2009, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I don't like heroes because I frontline. Anyone else that is a decent frontline doesn't like them either.

You see frontlines aren't just there to kill or do damage. They also get into the mind of the opponent, affecting the opponent's play.

AI

Of course what is really confounding the problem right now is that the current meta in HA is just one of the worst metas that HA has ever gone through.

Krill · Feb 17, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Eh I think if hero's ability to use p-drain was nerfed this would be a lot less problematic...that is the one skill (along with drain enchant on tease heroes) that allows them to power up PwK / WoW / WoS and whatever else in the other slot on recharge. At any rate I hope this meta is in its last throes, the low ranked teaseways can't kill anything yet they still keep playing it.

Yesterday I did a little social experiment, grabbed a couple friends, couple random players and pugged a build similar to the old h-way but with 2 RaO's, an SH, LC warder, taint hero, SoR smite hero and two prism healers. Our RaO's were horrifyingly bad yet will still managed to mow through teaseways and a couple balanced groups in under 2 minutes. That meta was also pretty crappy, but at least the games didn't go on for ******* ever. Iway also seems to be making a comeback with prism healers...

TheHaxor · Feb 18, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Nibelrund

This statement is ridiculous. Please come back with valid points if you want to argue with someone.

Do some research on game mechanics before you get the courage to call something ridiculous. I'm not going to take the time to go through your post because you would probably get offended by my remarks.

You fail to realize that most of the playerbase is very different from you. Your entire post is subjective. You compared every issue players face to only your experiences. Do you not understand the meaning of objectivity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Nibelrund

Also, I'm not here to defend Buffy, but StP was born as a HA guild so I presume he's played quite a bit of HA when it was in a much better state.

How is this relevant to anything? The GvG discussion was only to point out that most areas of PvP in this game are reliant on NPCs. I made assumptions that the user plays GvG based on what they have previously stated. I was not interested in whether or not they had played HA in the past. Besides, knowing what HA was like 2 years ago doesn't make you an expert on the state of HA now.

Snow Bunny · Feb 18, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I hate to dicksuck here but The Haxor has made the smartest points here.

You can take heroes out but that won't revive HA at all. If you put in more heroes you'd actually see an increase in teams due to the ease at which teams would be formed. Of course you don't want to see more heroes, but that'd be the result.

If you nerf PwK and WoW people will probably run Mesmers with LoD and Shield of Deflection, or something stupid like that. Every time you nerf something, people find another unconventional skill combination.

People thought that SpNv were retarded for making a stand Rit with weapon spells and Rend for spikes, but that's pretty much the midline now, only they did it months ago. I understand that it's a GvG example but the same applies here now.

Apok Omen · Feb 18, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

So.....

Who else wants to start a ''Remove Heroes from HA'' thread?

I have frontlined against the Gwens enough to beg for her to be replaced by a Smiters Boon hero. At least then I'd get a hit in. I've even attempted to Dchop her once engaging, but her twin keeps up with both me and my monks at the same time(being able to tease my backline then placing a warding on her fellow self)

Smiter heroes were annoying, but so was sway, eleball, Gankways, Assacasters, and every other gimmicky pressure way, AND they were able to be outsmarted or at least mind-frakked. Teaseway is just... unprofessional and numbing.

And even after you manage to score a kill on the heroes, you have to deal with a three monk backline. But thats more annoying than tormenting, because those monks are gauranteed to be lazy and terrible.

Palm Sins are just not doing what even Izzy meant for them to do. I was fine with getting surpirse!buttsexed by ShadowPrison sins, because then I could simply call for help from the backline and the sin would be worthless for a good 20 seconds. Now, they can spam PS like its Wounding Strike, then follow it with a kd as you cripple away.

Lingering Curse is actually the less tormenting of the aforementioned imba classes. At least it can be d-shotted/PBlock/D-chopped with success. Does it need to be nerfed still? YES! But not as much as Heroes and PSsins.

Peace and Harmony actually discourages hexways, which is either an intended affect or an unintended buff. Worse thing is that its on a short recharge and shorter activation times. 1/4 of a second is too fast, and 7 seconds (shorter on a 40/40 set...) is too fast. This has overshadowed many viable hex removal skills, yet seems almost pointless to bring when the only hexes being thrown around are LC and Dom hexes.

Lichway is a blessing to see and play against. A build with huge spike power, unlimited minions, and tons of defense, but can be broken by simply mind-frakking the players.

Edwards · Feb 18, 2009, 06:43 AM // 06:43

The problem isn't really the heroes.

Speaking as somebody who has been doing more and more monking, simply because I can't stand playing any of the other meta bars, getting a random interrupt on some of my skills is annoying, but never really decides matches unless the team's already under tremendous pressure, and prots are not being properly applied. Getting patient, WoH, RC, LS, or SoA/Guardian teased at the wrong time can certainly hurt, but if your team is doing its part to mitigate damage by spreading out, not tanking AoE, kiting, etc, then you should be able to recover. A lot of times I wind up staying in my shield set for the whole game, waiting for my team to kill stuff.

PS sins are a bit more of a problem, but still aren't all that bad. They're a bit too good at spamming KDs and cripple, which can be extremely annoying if they decide to sit on your frontline for any length of time. If you have trouble monking against them, just bring dual cripple reduction mods and kite, and they'll leave you alone once they realize that they can't get anything off on you, which frees up AoS for your frontline. I'd still support a nerf to at least 6s recharge though.

Weapon spells used by heroes are also very annoying, but again, aren't THAT bad. Gwen throw's WoW/WoS on anything taking physical damage, so target swapping a lot makes her a lot less useful. She's really worst against builds that rely on a 3, 2, 1 omega spike with a ton of physical damage every 10-15 seconds.

Lingering Curse is the much bigger issue, in my opinion. Lingering is highly effective at reducing healing, has a long duration, low recharge, is AoE, and has a low energy cost. This creates a problem because as you team degens from the hexes and takes AoE damage, you're forced into using your party heals, especially on a HB bar. However, all of your party healing skills are that much less effective, but you're still spending the same amount of energy to use them. This increased killing power allows teams using LC to bring less offense and still kill teams. What do they bring in those now empty slots instead of the extra damage which they now don't need? Well, they bring more defense, and particularly party heals, so that they can stand up to other teams which bring LC. As a result, other teams are perhaps not forced, but strongly, strongly encouraged to bring LC, because they need it to create pressure against teams with a million party heals. As everyone starts bringing LC, everyone's forced to bring lots of party heals and defense to compensate for it.

I believe that this relationship between LC and defensive midliners with strong party heals is what is causing this stale meta. There are few viable options to fight teams with a stong, highly compressed offense which, AS A RESULT, can also afford to bring a ridiculous amount of defense. Certainly, most pressure build become inviable. Spikes are also hurt, because they have to deal usually with three monks + Gwen throwing WoW on everything.

TL;DR: New forms of damage compression are allowing teams to bring more defense than ever before, which is creating a stale meta because people can't kill things with traditional builds.

Apok Omen · Feb 18, 2009, 09:03 AM // 09:03

To above poster: Well, I haven't monked in a long while, but I see where you are coming from. LC does need a nerf, perhaps even a revert. However, if (huge ''if'' seeing as we haven't seen a direct HA update besides the slightly ineffective PwK nerf) Anet decides to nerf LC, they will have to do something more drastic towards PnH.

The skill is too good to be a skill. It completely obliterates Hexways focused on single-profession shutdown (i.e. Migraine, PriceOfFailure/RecklessHaste, VoR, Water/Earth hexes, etc.) Other elite hex removal is at least balanced around limits/energy requirements (i.e. DivertHexes(even if no one ran it since NF release, it deserves a reference), ExpelHexes, BLight) The short recharge makes it spammable, the short activation time makes it difficult to interrupt, and the low energy cost makes it managable. And with HumSig limited to a bar consisting of mainly Mesmer skills, disabling it is less of an option.

For goodness sakes, LoD was nerfed because it proved to be too good of a party heal. If PnH remains alive, even by the end of the April update, then why even have hexes anymore?

Also, the only reason that people (especially melee players) complain about heroes is the AI's inability to process fear and advandtage of quick reaction times (I can only have my Dchop Teased so many times before just giving up using attack skills altogether) Yes, the weapons are on a long recharge, but when they are used on a target getting adrenaline-spiked, it starts getting beyond annoying.

As for PS sins, the only problem I have with them is that they can KD a target every 8-9 seconds, and spike every 12 seconds, whereas a Warrior (even a PR) can only KD a target every 10-12 seconds and spike every 20 seconds for half the damage. At least with SP sins, you could countdown the seconds until they spiked.

Arya Nibelrund · Feb 18, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Defining GvG 'a game type that is more centered around NPCs' is ridiculous, i rest my case.
Also, of course I speak from my experience like anyone else when expressing a personal opinion. I talked about issues players face now and why they should want heroes, and I also talked about what I did to avoid that. I don't see why anyone else can't do that; you can't be bothered to form a party with 2 more humans? Then I don't see why you want to play HA. TA is made for 4, try that. You can't win without heroes winning for you? It's not written anywhere that everyone should be high ranked. If you're not good enough then that's it, you deserve to lose. Then you can try to improve by keep trying, or just think it's not worth it and do something else. I don't need more and more farmers recently turning to HA cause it's easy to get fame with the help of NPCs to keep the game interesting for me, I'd rather get huge skips but play against full teams. Of course that's my point of view, and you might not agree with that. Fine by me, but I struggled at the beginning to get my fame like everyone else and to get friends. I never played lame, I tried to improve, I tried to get friends and ta-dah I got the results after months. People wants things fast and easy now, and I can't agree with that.
Also, you started flaming Buffy. No need to call people pathetic to prove your points.
Now, I'd be curious to hear your remarks about my previous post.

Divinus Stella · Feb 18, 2009, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Actually im pretty sure both Buffy and Arya play more tombs than anyone else in this thread.

Infact theres a few in StP who play tombs often, most have been playing it since the game was released and have never stopped, Buffy was rank 9 while the HAXXOR was killing charr on his level 12 warrior/monk.

I don't have a problem with tease heros, i think its hilarious that one fat hispanic hero completely rid HA of its ranger spike infestation but i do agree with points made about PvP being for players alone and not AI controlled party members.

Also the comparison of the Guild Lord to a hero is completely retarded, if anything the ghostly hero is more similar because he actively takes part in the fight rather than just being a totem sitting in a corner of the map.

Lykan · Feb 18, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

This makes me think your argument is either a cop-out or you don't reason very well. This doesn't even account for the fact that your opinion doesn't hold much weight in an area of the game that you don't even play.

Firstly I dont come here to argue altho its apparent you do so if thats all you're here for I suggest you check out QQ forums instead. And my opinion weighs about as much as yours whether I play or not, I dont have to play HA to know how retarded the meta is. You just have to stand in ID1 for for 5 mins to see that its borked completely. (and its been about 3 months not 2 years)
Even if you increase the number of heroes as someone said it wont revive HA it will make it even worse, the last remaining players who play for fun will leave for sure and it will just be completely full of "lf latest farmway group drones. It will still be an effectively dead arena, full of mindless farmers but with no life there.
For HA to have any chance of changing the seemingly endless cycle of lame c-space builds heroes have to go. Otherwise its just a long downward spiral. Heroway already makes up about 90%% of all teams there, if things dont change thats all it will be.

I wont even reply to your comments about gvg except to say that the roles, conditions and relevence of the npcs there is entirely different. Discussing it any further will just derail this thread even more.

TheHaxor · Feb 18, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Firstly I dont come here to argue altho its apparent you do so if thats all you're here for I suggest you check out QQ forums instead.

This is a debate. You post your thoughts. I disagree with your thoughts and post why. You post why you disagree with my thoughts on your thoughts. The circle continues until someone realizes they have made an "error in their calculations." If this never happens, then the cycle continues forever unless someone decides to give up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

And my opinion weighs about as much as yours whether I play or not, I dont have to play HA to know how retarded the meta is.

That's like saying you're an expert on the culture surrounding baseball today because you played in the late 80s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Actually im pretty sure both Buffy and Arya play more tombs than anyone else in this thread.

Infact theres a few in StP who play tombs often, most have been playing it since the game was released and have never stopped, Buffy was rank 9 while the HAXXOR was killing charr on his level 12 warrior/monk.

Thanks for being irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Also the comparison of the Guild Lord to a hero is completely retarded, if anything the ghostly hero is more similar because he actively takes part in the fight rather than just being a totem sitting in a corner of the map.

Yes, because killing one thing that runs an AI isn't eerily similar to killing something else that also runs on AI. If anything, heroes are more human-like than any other NPC in the game because you can customize their skills, armor, weapons, and force them to use skills. Killing Norgu should feel more satisfying than killing an archer or a knight to someone who doesn't like to "PvE in PvP." My point is it's pretty stupid to like GvG, but complain about having to fight against AI in another area of the game.

Lykan · Feb 19, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Thanks for being irrelevant.

About 3 quarters of what you have posted in this entire thread has been irrelevant comments on other people's worthyness to have an opinion. Why dont you tell us your credentials as you seem to think your opinion weighs more than everyone elses.

Quote:

That's like saying you're an expert on the culture surrounding baseball today because you played in the late 80s.

Huh, no it really isnt. That didnt make any sense at all. Do you even think before you hit the post button? I dont recall saying im an expert and how is not having played for 3 months the same as 20 years?

Quote:

This is a debate. You post your thoughts. I disagree with your thoughts and post why. You post why you disagree with my thoughts on your thoughts. The circle continues until someone realizes they have made an "error in their calculations." If this never happens, then the cycle continues forever unless someone decides to give up.

Your first comment was to flame me regarding how im 'scared' of heroes so yes you were arguing. But congrats im out, I dont feel like wasting any more of my time. I dont really give a crap if you agree with my opinion or not.

Reverend Dr · Feb 19, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

My opinions are worthy because I am a man made of straw.

TheHaxor · Feb 19, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

About 3 quarters of what you have posted in this entire thread has been irrelevant comments on other people's worthyness to have an opinion. Why dont you tell us your credentials as you seem to think your opinion weighs more than everyone elses.

All of my comments are directed exactly towards what other people have said. The credentials don't matter, but openly admitting you haven't been playing halls lately leads me to believe you don't know as much as you think you do. I never stated anyone was unworthy of an opinion, but I was pointing out that if you haven't been playing halls lately your opinion doesn't hold much weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Huh, no it really isnt. That didnt make any sense at all. Do you even think before you hit the post button? I dont recall saying im an expert and how is not having played for 3 months the same as 20 years?

Did you miss the big dartboard update in December? This completely changed the makeup of HA. It's like a completely different "generation." You couldn't figure that comparison out for yourself? Do you even think about what you're reading before you try to critique it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Your first comment was to flame me regarding how im 'scared' of heroes so yes you were arguing. But congrats im out, I dont feel like wasting any more of my time. I dont really give a crap if you agree with my opinion or not.

You do care otherwise you wouldn't try to defend your opinions. My first post was trying to get to the bottom of your poorly drawn out opinion. Your writing seemed like you were pretty upset over heroes and a lot of people only cry about them because they think they are overpowered.

legendary4321 · Feb 19, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I don't like heroes because I frontline. Anyone else that is a decent frontline doesn't like them either.

You see frontlines aren't just there to kill or do damage. They also get into the mind of the opponent, affecting the opponent's play.

AI

Of course what is really confounding the problem right now is that the current meta in HA is just one of the worst metas that HA has ever gone through.

I Agree with this, I call ha and as a War running balance vs that crap, I don't enjoy it. I have blind from wepon of shadow, or the mes hero puts wow on the target i spike right befor I even hit them. It annoys the hell outa me and I know it annoys other callers because when I play a ranger or monk with some friends, It sucks and I belive heros should be taken out of this part in PvP.

PvP stands for players vs players,no? Where do you see heros in that statement?